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  #71  
Old 01-31-2010, 12:37 PM
not_so_humble_german not_so_humble_german is offline
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if such code exists in the first place.

But you don't even NEED to create the same binaries.
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  #72  
Old 01-31-2010, 01:48 PM
[ IronMan.Lok ] [ IronMan.Lok ] is offline
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thats the point, you may never know if such code exists, and if the code shown is what really goes into binaries, if you can't generate binaries from this code and compare...

if you say to reverse engineer the binaries and discover if they do those tricks, well...

first is that the tricks are not so visible, just a lil bit of tweaking on a scheduler here, another point on that API there, make our software uses better API to access kernel objects rather than the one published, and voila, the sum of all can make a difference...

second, you can't use reverse engineer as proof cause it's illegal under EULAs and DMCAs, but some black market ppl did reverse engineer and discovered some bits... ofc ISV could complain, but again, they can't use reverse engineer as proof, and also, reverse engineer doesnt show all the details, only a small bit, hence the pressure from government agencies for MS to show the code... but again, going back to original point, the way MS shown the code, there's no way we can attest for sure it's the real thing
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  #73  
Old 01-31-2010, 01:57 PM
[ IronMan.Lok ] [ IronMan.Lok ] is offline
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a fine example that ISVs do reverse engineer, they know microsoft has secret bits on his binaries, but ofc, can't recognize this publicly

http://arstechnica.com/security/news...-engineer.ars/
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  #74  
Old 01-31-2010, 08:25 PM
hyc hyc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [ IronMan.Lok ] View Post
care to explain?

if a company goes bankrupt, does it mean I can get all their IP for free?

have you actually read the NDA you should sign to have access to MS source code? (I did)
Usually the assets of the company are sold off. So no, you only get to use their IP if you buy it at the fire sale.

But the topic of this thread says that Windows becomes an orphan product, meaning that nobody buys the IP related to it. At that point, if nobody is around with a legitimate claim of ownership, then yes, it's in the public domain and anyone can use it for free.

Not that I'd even touch it with a 10 foot pole...

Anyway, as for the anticircumvention rules in the DMCA - they only apply to protected works. If a work is in the public domain, it is no longer protected. So, reverse engineer as much as you like.
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  #75  
Old 02-03-2010, 08:22 PM
[ IronMan.Lok ] [ IronMan.Lok ] is offline
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ok, im not familiar with public domain laws or company bankrupcy laws of USA, but based on the laws of where I live, it's not possible for IP to have no ownership, so I'm not sure it would turn into public domain

ok, Ill give an example:

suppose me and a friend open a company, we hold 50% each... things go well, we buy stuff (Assets), a car for example... then things go bad, and we break... we have to sell our stuff to pay our debts, fine, but suppose we can't find a buyer for this car... we closed the doors, but we're left with a car owned by the company...

ok, in this situation the car ISNT ownerless, I'm the owner of 50% of the car, and my friend is the owner of the other 50% car... we can make a deal so I buy his half and became the sole owner, or we deal with other assets, like, he gets the furnitures and I get the car...

whatever it happens, if the car isnt sold when we broke, it doesnt mean any1 can have it, the car still have owners, it's just that it's not a company anymore, but 2 people

now, if we replace CAR with CODE on my example, it means the code won't become public domain, cause all the share holders of MS can claim ownership when it tanks (is it share holders? im not familiar with companies that trade stocks publicly)

I mean, its a really strange concept to me that things become ownerless suddenly, so Im making assumptions cause Im not totally familiar with legal system on USA...

any1 care to comment on that?
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  #76  
Old 02-04-2010, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [ IronMan.Lok ] View Post
ok, im not familiar with public domain laws or company bankrupcy laws of USA, but based on the laws of where I live, it's not possible for IP to have no ownership, so I'm not sure it would turn into public domain

ok, Ill give an example:

suppose me and a friend open a company, we hold 50% each... things go well, we buy stuff (Assets), a car for example... then things go bad, and we break... we have to sell our stuff to pay our debts, fine, but suppose we can't find a buyer for this car... we closed the doors, but we're left with a car owned by the company...

ok, in this situation the car ISNT ownerless, I'm the owner of 50% of the car, and my friend is the owner of the other 50% car... we can make a deal so I buy his half and became the sole owner, or we deal with other assets, like, he gets the furnitures and I get the car...

whatever it happens, if the car isnt sold when we broke, it doesnt mean any1 can have it, the car still have owners, it's just that it's not a company anymore, but 2 people

now, if we replace CAR with CODE on my example, it means the code won't become public domain, cause all the share holders of MS can claim ownership when it tanks (is it share holders? im not familiar with companies that trade stocks publicly)

I mean, its a really strange concept to me that things become ownerless suddenly, so Im making assumptions cause Im not totally familiar with legal system on USA...

any1 care to comment on that?
You are probably right but we are dealing with a hypothetical situation here so this side probably shouldn't be worried about too much. Maybe in this situation a meteor hit all the servers that store the Microsoft code and developers (yes they are stored on the same servers ) so what is out there is out there and that is it.

Personally I would do the reverse of what I am currently doing, move to a fully Linux environment. (currently going to a Windows based system so I can play some games, still didn't pay though lol, MSDN ) I can do pretty much all I do now on Linux, only thing I can't do is to do net simulations and program the FPGAs we use, at least not with the tools we use at the moment. ************ VHDL and Altera FPGAs, although that said I saw something somewhere about running Quartus under linux so maybe I am wrong... *goes off to investigate for future work*

Early on in the thread old ATI products were mentioned, I have an old chipset that works better under newer versions of linux that old so having to stick with old x etc isn't a problem for everyone.
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  #77  
Old 02-06-2010, 02:02 PM
stalker stalker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mad Hatter View Post
Actually it wasn't. I said that this was theoretical. Totally theoretical. What would you do if you COULD not buy Windows anymore?
I would compromise... keep working on current Windows, and slowly, as I find alternatives, transition to the next best thing which I'm sure would surface once the monopoly dies. And no! I'm not talking about fruity loop!

BTW, should you also put into perspective what would happen if that 75% of workload done by payed programmers on the Linux platform would cease to exist? It's kinda the same thing, actually. People, with the limited support Linux has, would need to waste time searching for alternative even more. There would be less and less security fixes, optimizations, not to mention that it will disappoint the ones that don't get payed, by leaving all of the burden on their shoulders.

What hyc said earlier reminded me of something in the geek department I've read a few years ago... someone claimed IP for something that was heavily used publicly and the court ruling decided that it now belongs to public domain, so the IP claims went poof. Too little, too late.

IP can't have no owner, yes... but if it ceases to have an owner (that's more accurate) it would become unprotected. Like if you would own a patent for a button, if you would die (sorry) and not have any next of kin to inherit your rights that patent would become public domain, so anyone would be able to use it. One thing that could differ are old and unmaintained laws varying from country to country that might not allow it, or that might allow you to rediscover the button but not by studying the previously done work.

Also I don't believe the statement that Linux people would not touch the Windows source code if it became public. I think they would probably go through it like a mad dogs... imagine a stable and resource-friendly Windows with improved security and no bloatware... for Free.99

One can only dream... but waking up, yeah Microsoft is still here.
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  #78  
Old 02-07-2010, 11:59 PM
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Once IP rights have been eliminated, either by the patent holder not paying the annual fee, or the necessary time runs out, or a court rules such, the IP as such disappears, i.e., there is no longer any "intellectual property", and whatever what was protected is available for use by all with no fees.

Sorry, stalker, as hard as I try, I can't imagine a stable and resource-friendly Windoze with improved security and no bloatware... in order for that to happen, the code base would have to be modified so extensively, it would no longer be Windoze.
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  #79  
Old 02-08-2010, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rich wargo View Post
Sorry, stalker, as hard as I try, I can't imagine a stable and resource-friendly Windoze with improved security and no bloatware... in order for that to happen, the code base would have to be modified so extensively, it would no longer be Windoze.
Here is a good start for that:
http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html

Basically an opensource OS built from scratch, implementing windows API's so its able to run windows software (and drivers) natively.
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  #80  
Old 02-08-2010, 11:43 AM
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Well, now that's progress, although I have trouble imagining how they have managed to work on it what with the blizzard of legal paperwork thrown at them by Microsoft's lawyers. I mean, they are trying to duplicate Windows, aren't they?
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